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  1. #11

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    Red face Re: Is Freedom Z a commercial mower?

    Agreed,
    The adjective "commercial" is widely abused. "Commercial grade" is close to being more correct, however also widely misused in advertising!!
    Mad Mackie in CT

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  3. #12

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    Re: Is Freedom Z a commercial mower?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ric View Post
    RatRacer I love your post.
    RatRacer,

    Me too!!!!! I guess you guys have already figured out I'm the type that likes to "stir things up" and doesn't just always blindly accept the status quo:0)
    Actually, whenever I am "learning something new"(like ZTR technology) I am adamant that when in discussion with others that we are all on the same page and at least agree on the terminologies to use whenever possible(aside from the fact that sometimes "opinions" will obviously "crawl in"....like worms:0)
    I guess if I REALLY want to make that can of worms "nightcrawlers", instead of "red wigglers" I could start(another) "controversial" Poll thread, like the ROPS/Seatbelt one:0), asking the question "Do You Consider Your ZTR a "Commercial ZTR" And Why?"....or maybe simply "Does Usage Or Components Designate A ZTR As A Commercial ZTR-Please Justify Your Vote?".

    Ric,
    I really cannot argue too much with your points because they are very good ones(as always). I tend to wholeheartedly agree with users Tom59 and Mad Mackie's posts in that again it seems that the mower industry has led us down this path where there can be a lot of confusion when trying to "categorize" a ZTR. When I was buying, I wanted a "Commercial Grade ZTR-top-to-bottom" and that's why the grade of components in the Gravely Pro-Turn 100XDZ, the price range of that series and the marketing of that ZTR by Gravely(including the blatant Commercial decal on the front of it) pretty well convinved me that I was getting what I was seeking. So, it's understandable that I would use the type of components/features that was in what "my manufacturer" referred to as an "entry level Commercial ZTR" to determine whether a Scag Freedom had the same level of components top-to-bottom. When it(or any other) did not, I viewed it as a "high end Residential, with some Commercial components". The terms Homeowner/Residential, Heavy Duty, Industrial and, as pointed out by user Tom59 along with further definitions of Light, Medium & Heavy use within those categories would be much more appropriate. Unfortunately, users that come here have already been "indoctrinated" to use the commonly accepted terminologies of Residential or Commercial. Many ZTR's fall into both of those categories, therefore it becomes difficult for those of us trying to assist newbies to help them understand what "overall quality" of ZTR's they are looking at.
    To put the Scag Freedom Z discussion to rest, I guess we must say that since the Freedom is their "bottom-of-the-line" series that Scag, like Kubota before introduction of this year's Kommander series, ONLY makes Commercial ZTR's and does not have any ZTR's that can/should be compared to another manufacturer's Residential/Homeowner series. Do you agree with that statement?:0)
    Last edited by djdicetn; 05-11-2013 at 01:14 PM.

  4. #13

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    Re: Is Freedom Z a commercial mower?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom59 View Post
    Commercial can mean a lot of things to a lot of folks. If you use it for making money its commercial, literally. Doesn't mean it will hold up. Key words - hold up- They should actually use different terms altogether. Like industrial use or heavy use. Or light industrial use and medium industrial use.
    I'd say its a light industrial use machine.

    Pro Turn 100xdz is light/medium industrial. I also think light residential use , medium residential use, and heavy residential use would apply to some models. Confused yet. :D

    comキmerキcial
    [kuh-mur-shuhl] Show IPA

    adjective
    1.
    of, pertaining to, or characteristic of commerce.

    2.
    engaged in commerce.

    3.
    prepared, done, or acting with sole or chief emphasis on salability, profit, or success: a commercial product; His attitude toward the theater is very commercial.

    4.
    able to yield or make a profit: We decided that the small oil well was not commercial.

    5.
    suitable or fit for a wide, popular market: Communications satellites are gradually finding a commercial use.
    Tom59,
    Thanks for your perspective on this, which really got me to thinking!!! I agree that maybe the 3 categories of (1)Residential/Homeowner, (2)Heavy Duty and (3)Industrial grade are much more appropriate in describing today's ZTR's. If maybe a Poll where all of the Moderators would be "tasked with" gleaning out the "components/features" of a ZTR that put's the ZTR, based upon containing a certain "percentage" of those that are deemed "Commercial Grade", into one of those three categories we could come up with some type of "Forum Recommended" rating system. Then we could encourage new users to try to view/rate ZTR's they are looking at into those definitions for manufacturer-to-manufactuer comparisons(to get an apples-to-apples level playing field). I, for one, would suggest that "at least" the components/features below be condidered in that voting/ratings determination:

    1)Transmission series/type-Defining single units like the HydroGear as (1)EZT; (2)ZT-2800, ZT3100; (3)ZT-3400, ZT-5400 and of course the separate pumps/motors as (1).
    2)Engine Make/Series-Defining which series in the leading makes such as Kawasaki, Kohler an Briggs & Stratton identifies them as (1), (2) or (3) as in the Kawasaki FR, FS & FX.
    3)Deck Gauge-Defining whether 5, 7, 10, 13, etc. identifies them as (1), (2) or (3).
    4)Deck Design-Most mfg's have "good", "better" & "best" decks(i.e. in Gravely line they have the (1)XLerator, (2)High Flow Tunnel and (3)X-Factor).
    5)Weight-Would not a 700lbs, 900lbs & 1100lbs weight for a ZTR with the same deck cutting size machine indicate (1), (2) or (3) grade?
    6)ROPS-In most cases I would consider (1)no ROPS, (2)Solid ROPS or (3)Foldable ROPS.
    7)Anti-scalp Wheels-Existence of, number of and bracket strength/design.
    8)Blade Tip Speed-This one is a very difficult one to determine as there is no "industry rating system" that I am aware of and no one on these forums will "go there".
    9)And, finally.....Warranties-If a ZTR has a "Commercial Warranty" of at least 1 Year I guess you would have to give it a (1) in that "component/feature category", then (2) & (3) would be based upon the basic "Years/Hours" Warranty.

    There are possibly many more areas that could be considered i.e. deck hanging system(chain hung, etc.) and maybe some other users can dissect my recommendations and/or suggest others. I fully understand that, just like agreeing on a minimum "professional cut blade tip speed", coming up with a "Forums Recommended" ZTR rating system may be something that is improbable at best. Or.......we can just continue to agree to disagree on what is/is not a "Commercial ZTR":0)

  5. #14


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    Re: Is Freedom Z a commercial mower?

    djdicetn

    In all actuality you as a homeowner don't need a truly commercial mower to mow your lawn once a week. Your Gravely like the Hustler Fastrak, the Scag Freedom Z and many others is a low end commercially made mower produced with the Homeowner in mind as Hustler says. They make the mowers with a few commercial upgrades here and there to satisfy the demands of the homeowner. The reason they make the mowers this way is because you as a homeowner, like most of us are so tight with your money that you squeak when you walk and are not willing to pay the 12 to 16K that it would cost for a true commercial grade mower. I mean really as a homeowner why would you pay for wheel pumps and motors or a 7 gauge deck and the toughest spindles the industry makes and the list goes on and on just to mow your lawn once a week. There's a mower and a price for everybody, for you as a homeowner, for the guy just starting his business to the guy who is full out in the business. As the old saying goes You get what you pay for.


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  6. #15

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    Re: Is Freedom Z a commercial mower?

    It leaves too much to interpretation -commercial- and is used loosely.

    Causes endless arguements and debates also people feel slighted , especially if your version doesn't include their tractor.

  7. #16

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    Re: Is Freedom Z a commercial mower?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ric View Post
    djdicetn

    In all actuality you as a homeowner don't need a truly commercial mower to mow your lawn once a week. Your Gravely like the Hustler Fastrak, the Scag Freedom Z and many others is a low end commercially made mower produced with the Homeowner in mind as Hustler says. They make the mowers with a few commercial upgrades here and there to satisfy the demands of the homeowner. The reason they make the mowers this way is because you as a homeowner, like most of us are so tight with your money that you squeak when you walk and are not willing to pay the 12 to 16K that it would cost for a true commercial grade mower. I mean really as a homeowner why would you pay for wheel pumps and motors or a 7 gauge deck and the toughest spindles the industry makes and the list goes on and on just to mow your lawn once a week. There's a mower and a price for everybody, for you as a homeowner, for the guy just starting his business to the guy who is full out in the business. As the old saying goes You get what you pay for.
    Ric,
    Yeah, many more users would have "questioned my intentions/sanity" if I had bought a 4000 series Ventrac instead of the Gravely:0)
    My REAL reasons were:
    1)No untimely/expensive repairs to negatively impact my Pension & Social Security income beginning in 2014(or require spending money out of my 401K's).
    2)Having somewhat of a "legacy" to hand down to my son(and most likely grandson) after I'm "done with it"(aka dead & gone).
    3)To "keep up with the Jones"(aka, the Benkosy's next door that have had an Ariens Zoom ZTR for 15 years that made my lawn look like I cut it with a gas trimmer:0)
    4)Ya never know.....I might need some supplemental income if the budget forecast I made for retirement doesn't work out:0)

  8. #17

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    Re: Is Freedom Z a commercial mower?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom59 View Post
    It leaves too much to interpretation -commercial- and is used loosely.

    Causes endless arguements and debates also people feel slighted , especially if your version doesn't include their tractor.
    Tom59,
    Well I consider the debate/argument on the Scag Freedom Z "closed", since user Ric(oooops) finally summed it up in one sentence:

    "the Scag Freedom Z and many others is a low end commercially made mower produced with the Homeowner in mind".

    Since it is produced with the Homeowner in mind, rather than the Commercial operator in mind......it is a "Homeowner/Residential" ZTR. I win....argument over:0)

  9. #18

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    Re: Is Freedom Z a commercial mower?

    Quote Originally Posted by djdicetn View Post
    Ric,
    Yeah, many more users would have "questioned my intentions/sanity" if I had bought a 4000 series Ventrac instead of the Gravely:0)
    My REAL reasons were:
    1)No untimely/expensive repairs to negatively impact my Pension & Social Security income beginning in 2014(or require spending money out of my 401K's).
    2)Having somewhat of a "legacy" to hand down to my son(and most likely grandson) after I'm "done with it"(aka dead & gone).
    3)To "keep up with the Jones"(aka, the Benkosy's next door that have had an Ariens Zoom ZTR for 15 years that made my lawn look like I cut it with a gas trimmer:0)
    4)Ya never know.....I might need some supplemental income if the budget forecast I made for retirement doesn't work out:0)
    Your real reason was neighborhood bragging rights. That is by far the most fun - looking good on the ride-

  10. #19

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    Re: Is Freedom Z a commercial mower?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom59 View Post
    Your real reason was neighborhood bragging rights. That is by far the most fun - looking good on the ride-
    Tom59,
    Well, as they say...envy and narcicism is the downfall of many.......but I do look good on my ride below, don't I?????
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #20

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    Red face Re: Is Freedom Z a commercial mower?

    My recommendations to folk looking for mowers in the ride on class is to chat with the more service oriented dealers in their area, particularly if the perspective buyer is not service skilled. All machines need servicing of various levels during their useful life but not every owner can perform all needed maintenance. So chat with several reputable dealers in your area, discuss with them what types of service that you will or may need to have them perform and then make a decision as to which make and model you consider purchasing.
    Bear in mind that none of the "big box" stores provide any type of servicing and many times their pricing isn't that great for the exact same machine from a local dealer. Many products sold by the big box stores are compromised somewhere to increase their profit margin, and this includes lawn mowers at every level.
    Mad Mackie in CT

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